Transcript for this weeks message:‍

Shane Jacob
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this episode of The Horsemanship Journey Podcast. I'm Shane Jacob, your host, and I thank you for taking the time to be here with us today. This episode is brought to you in part by Cowboy Cuffs—elevate your style, elevate your life. This cool shirt I’m wearing is called Spring Runoff. I recommend it.

Today, I’m very happy to welcome back, and I think you will be too, a returning guest, Dr. Michelle Maidenberg. Dr. Maidenberg has over 30 years of clinical experience and has had the honor of helping countless individuals transform their lives. She uncovers the core of emotional avoidance and anxiety that gets in the way of individuals living their best lives.

She is an accomplished speaker and author, including her new book, Ace Your Life: Unleash Your Best Self and Live the Life You Want, which I have listened to one and a half times so far, and I highly recommend it. Dr. Maidenberg, thanks so much for being back with us today. I appreciate you.

Michelle Maidenberg
Of course. Thank you, Shane. So nice to see you again.

Shane Jacob
That was pretty quick, and you do so many things that I just think are worth mentioning—particularly this video project company you have. Tell us a little bit more about what you do.

Michelle Maidenberg
Yeah, thank you. So, it's called Through My Eyes. It’s a nonprofit 501(c)(3), and it offers free, clinically guided videotaping for chronically and medically ill individuals who want to leave a video legacy for their children and loved ones. It’s a real passion project of mine. I've done over 300 videos, and I hope it contributes to the field of palliative care because it really helps people in their final days express themselves and carry on their legacy, which is invaluable.

I'm also a Psychology Today blogger. In fact, I’m publishing an article today, which I’m very excited about, on nine tips for improving connection and communication in relationships. I do a lot of self-help publications. As you generously mentioned, I have my book, and I also teach at NYU. It’s a graduate course on mindfulness—specifically, how to integrate mindfulness into clinical practice. And last but not least, I did a TED Talk on circumventing emotional avoidance. I also have a YouTube channel, where every Thursday morning at 11 a.m., I publish a new guided meditation.

Shane Jacob
With all that, which is incredible—a lot!—we appreciate you taking the time to share your perspective and philosophy, and really add help and value to our audience today. I want to give a quick recap of just a couple of notes, then ask you to comment on that quick recap. We also kind of had a therapy or coaching session on a little thing that happened to me.

Michelle Maidenberg
Yes.

Shane Jacob
So, I wanted to follow up on that. Here are the notes that stood out to me from our first episode—if you missed that as a listener or viewer, these were the key points. First, we avoid danger and discomfort, whether it's real or perceived. I think that’s pretty easy to grasp; we can all understand that it often equals negative emotions, which we tend to avoid.

Next, when we avoid negative emotions, we also cut off or avoid the positive ones. I think that’s worth highlighting. You mentioned that there are many forms of avoidance—some positive, some negative. Negative emotions are beneficial because they connect us to our higher-order values, which was a new concept for me and, I think, for many people. Could you comment on that a little bit?

Also, we often believe that people trigger us, but that’s not true. What’s more accurate is that we get triggered by what's happening within us, not from an external source. This is the big takeaway: we’re not taught compassion. Lastly, you’ve seen people over your career—over many years—who thrive and develop these skills. I think that's definitely worth mentioning. That’s a lot, but could you share your thoughts on all of it?

Michelle Maidenberg
Yeah. First of all, I have to say, you did an incredible job extrapolating the main points. You really read the book, and I appreciate that because it’s so thoughtful. There are a couple of things you mentioned that I’d like to expand on, as they are integral to how we move through our stuckness.

One thing you noted is how negative emotions connect us to our higher-order values. That’s such a crucial component. We often get down on ourselves when we experience negative emotions. Not only do we have those emotions, but we also judge ourselves for having them. For example, “Why am I still thinking about that person? We broke up; I should be over this. It’s been a year—what’s wrong with me?” And that’s just one example—the scenarios are endless.

We question why we're worried or why we can’t get certain thoughts out of our minds. It leads to a cycle where we have thoughts about our thoughts and feelings about our feelings, which causes our brains to spiral. This negative self-talk and self-deprecation negatively impact our confidence. If we’re weighed down by this kind of thinking, we won’t be our most productive, authentic, or connected selves.

So, when I teach people to acknowledge a negative emotion, I’m referring to emotions like disappointment, frustration, anger, and sadness—the types we try to avoid because they’re uncomfortable. They’re uncomfortable because they can affect us physiologically. We’d much rather feel happiness, joy, contentment, and satisfaction. However, even positive emotions can sometimes lead to negative ones. For instance, we might feel joy when we connect with someone but then become fearful of rejection if we get too close.

You know, if I get too close, I’m being too vulnerable, and that’s putting me in a vulnerable position. So, all of our emotions can lead to that negative space. When you’re connecting with a negative emotion, what I do is say, Hmm, there’s pain in values and values in pain. What value is this emotion rubbing up against or tapping into that’s leading to this negativity? Typically, when we uncover what that is, we’re able to connect with what we’re proud of—what’s unique, special, and wonderful about ourselves.

When you reach that point, all feelings are on the table, and you have access to everything. You even become proud of having that negative emotion. It literally changes your whole perspective and mindset. You enter the world with a new outlook, which allows you to be more productive, authentic, and connected. And who doesn’t want that? I know I do.

Regarding triggers, this is another critical point. Human nature drives us to blame, shame, and judge—that’s how we protect ourselves in relationships. But in reality, we’re not protecting ourselves from others; we’re protecting ourselves from ourselves. When we experience a strong, intense negative emotion, we tend to deflect, keeping us disconnected from our self-awareness, self-love, self-acceptance, and self-efficacy.

To better understand triggers, ask yourself, How old is this? and Who is that within me? It’s usually a formative part of ourselves—a repressed aspect, like an adolescent or childhood self. When I get triggered, my judgmental and defensive sides come out to protect me from hurt, abandonment, or rejection. Some people internalize emotions, leading to a more depressive mindset, while others, like me, externalize. This externalizing helped me in childhood, but as an adult, it negatively impacted my relationships.

Even now, I must consciously take a deep breath and go inward to seek help within myself, understanding what’s going on internally. When I do this, I connect with deep emotions. Sometimes I just sit and cry, feeling compassion for that hurt part of me. This approach completely changes how I respond to others. My interactions become more open, conscious, and mindful, and the responses I get are vastly different—it’s amazing.

The third point you mentioned is the lack of teaching around self-compassion. I can’t emphasize enough how we learn to be compassionate toward others but rarely toward ourselves. In an article I published today, I talked about vulnerability in communication. We don’t learn to be self-compassionate or recognize our needs in relationships. It’s something we must learn, and it can be incredibly challenging because it feels awkward and uncomfortable. And when that discomfort arises, what do we do? We avoid, distract, and disconnect.

I always say that we need to learn these skills very incrementally and at our own pace so that we don't slip into avoidance, which we typically do—that's kind of a human tendency. If people are sitting with me, I'll say to them, "Let's just sit here for a second. What does that feel like? What does it feel like to sit with those emotions right now?" And sometimes, people just break down into tears because it’s so overwhelming. They've never had the opportunity; no one has ever asked them that question. They’ve always just relied on their coping mechanisms or adaptations, which can become overwhelming.

‍Shane Jacob
Yeah, wow. I want to revisit what we talked about last time, especially regarding compassion. I think my struggle with understanding how this works ties into what you’ve described. For context, I’m past 50 years old, and I can confirm that self-compassion is not something that's taught. I've been searching for a long time, and it’s just not out there.

Let me recap what happened during the last episode when you were here. Literally, one minute before we were supposed to start recording, I was finishing up a call with our horse feed company. We use a payroll service, and they made a mistake on a young man's check—he couldn’t cash it. It was a paper check (yes, I know, we might still be in the Stone Age). I was just... rude. I was short, disrespectful, and hung up on the lady. I demanded that she fix the issue immediately.

Afterward, I told you how ashamed I felt for reacting that way. You suggested connecting my reaction to a value, and I did. It shifted my perspective a bit, but I’m not used to that process. I wondered if connecting it to a value was just an excuse for behavior I shouldn't accept. Deep down, I felt like I should suffer for causing someone else distress. Can you explain that more?

Michelle Maidenberg
That’s such a great question, and it’s easy to get confused. What I hear you saying is that you were ashamed of your behavior. You felt that because you acted in a way you were ashamed of, you didn’t deserve to feel okay about it—you needed to suffer. Here’s why your mind does that: It’s trying to protect you from danger and discomfort. In that moment, your mind was wired to keep you safe.

The “danger” (in quotes) is that if you forgive yourself and accept what happened, you fear you might do it again. So, you feel the need to punish yourself to prevent a repeat of that behavior. You don’t want to be the inattentive or rude person you were in that moment because that’s not how you see yourself. Does that make sense?

Shane Jacob
I think so. So, somewhere in my mind, there's this thought saying, “If you let this be okay, then that's just who you are.”

Michelle Maidenberg
Exactly. It’s both—your mind sees it as a reflection of who you are now and who you might become. Plus, there's this notion that if you don’t punish yourself enough, you’ll repeat the behavior. And you certainly don’t want to view yourself as a mean-spirited person. What’s it like to carry that kind of perception about yourself?

When you worry about who you are today or how you might be in the future, it's because those actions are far from how you truly want to be. That discomfort you’re feeling—that’s a positive sign. It means you care, and you should be disturbed by it, because that discomfort is what motivates you not to repeat the behavior. By looking inward and asking, "Who was that person who reacted that way?" you can identify the values that were violated.

Shane Jacob
Yeah, that's...

Michelle Maidenberg
What value got triggered or rubbed the wrong way that led to that behavior? By understanding this, you can better recognize when those feelings come up again. And it’s not if it happens, but when—because it will happen. When it does, you'll be more mindful of your behavior, which actually reduces the chance of repeating it. It’s the opposite of what you might think.

Shane Jacob
So, it's like a paradox. I think I’m understanding: instead of avoiding it, accepting and connecting the behavior to a value will help me change it. Go ahead...

Michelle Maidenberg
Exactly. It’s a part of you, but it’s not all of you. We often see ourselves as one-dimensional, but we're multi-dimensional. You have to acknowledge that there’s a part of you that gets triggered when certain values are challenged. Accepting that part and learning about it helps you be more aware of it, which is how you prevent it from taking over in the future.

Shane Jacob
I think I get it. The difficulty I have—and I think you understand this—is that I need to connect a behavior I don’t want with a positive value. For example, after our last conversation, I thought about why I reacted that way. One thing I value is paying my employees on time. But when she said, “most people don’t do this,” I think I felt defensive. It made me question how I measure up, which might have triggered my reaction. So, if I value being dependable, does that fit?

Michelle Maidenberg
Yes, absolutely. I would encourage you to go even deeper, though. Ask yourself, “What part of me felt that way?” Consider how old that feeling might be and when it first surfaced in your life. I hear values like effectiveness, dependability, and responsibility in what you’re saying. These are key values for you, and they definitely got challenged, which activated that reaction.

Shane Jacob
So, if I connect to those values—understanding they were challenged—then I can have compassion for myself and forgive myself. And by doing that, you’re saying I’ll be less likely to repeat the behavior in the future.

Michelle Maidenberg
Well, you don’t have to be proud of your behavior. Let me clarify: the behavior itself isn’t something to be proud of because it was rude, right? You’re owning that, and that’s okay. You can be upset about it, especially because it's so far from who you want to be. You want to be kind, caring, and compassionate. It’s okay to feel sad about that behavior, but you should also be proud that you care enough to be upset about it.

It’s not about how you should feel, but how you do feel. Connect with that emotion, and say to yourself, “In that moment, I was far from my value of kindness and consideration. Despite being activated and despite my values being triggered, it's not okay for me to behave that way.” And now, you can commit to doing better next time by truly feeling what it was like to behave that way. By internalizing it, you’ll be more mindful of your actions moving forward.

Shane Jacob
Awesome. This is really big for me because it was hard to accept that my behavior could be linked to a value. At first, I felt like I was justifying too much rather than forgiving myself and letting it be okay. But this is a big deal, right? If I can develop this concept, it can really impact everything.

Michelle Maidenberg
Let’s talk about what could happen if you didn’t go through this process. If you didn’t, you’d probably be frustrated with yourself, and you’d be flooded with thoughts all day, maybe longer. You’d go back and forth thinking, “What’s wrong with me?” “Why did I behave that way?” “I’m so ashamed of myself.” You might also think, “What’s wrong with the other person for making me act that way?” and "Why didn’t they do what they needed todo?" These thoughts would keep you stuck, and you wouldn’t be able to find resolution.

Shane Jacob
Yeah.

Michelle Maidenberg
Exactly. Without this process, you wouldn’t be able to make peace with yourself or the situation. You’d probably keep beating yourself up, which hurts your confidence and productivity. It wouldn’t lead anywhere good.

Shane Jacob
Got it. Just as an update, here’s what happened after our conversation. Right after we ended the podcast, I picked up the phone to call my sister—who produces this podcast—but accidentally called the payroll lady I was rude to. When I realized, I thought, “Oh no!” I wasn’t prepared for it. But I decided to go ahead with the call. I apologized and told her that I didn’t want to behave that way. She was pretty quiet, and in my mind, I thought, “Why is she not responding?” I kept going, saying I valued her, but she was still silent. After the call, I felt unsatisfied. But then I realized, I did everything I could. Whatever she does with it is up to her, and I had a sense of peace about it.

Michelle Maidenberg
Shane, I really applaud you. When you take action based on your values, it’s not about the other person’s response. It’s about you acting with integrity so you can go to sleep with a clear conscience. That’s what builds your confidence and strengthens your core.

Shane Jacob
Awesome.

Michelle Maidenberg
Yes, you did everything you could to align with your values. You can’t control her response—that’s her issue to work out. Wounded people often wound others, so whatever her reaction was, that’s her stuff. But you can feel proud that you acted consciously, caring, and mindfully, no matter how she responded.

Shane Jacob
Michelle, I really appreciate you and your time. I know you’ve got to go, so just a quick last thought: tell us about your book again.

Michelle Maidenberg
I really appreciate you inviting me back. My book is called Aced Your Life: Unleash Your Best Self and Live the Life You Want. It's also available as an audiobook, which I narrated because I really wanted to connect with my audience. You can find more info on my website, michellemaidenberg.com, where I share my blogs, YouTube channel, and other resources. Also, I’m working on a nonprofit and am looking for partners or collaborators to help expand it, as it’s a big passion of mine.

Shane Jacob
Michelle, Dr. Maidenberg, we wish you continued success. Thank you again for joining us.

Michelle Maidenberg
Thank you, Shane.

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