Transcript for this weeks message:

Shane Jacob

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to The Horsemanship Journey Podcast. My name is Shane Jacob, your host, and I appreciate you taking your time to be with us today. Don't forget to check out Stable Living at The Horsemanship Journey, our online coaching program that uses principles seen in horses to help teens thrive through the transition to adulthood and continue to thrive as adults.

Today we have, I'm excited for today's episode. have a special guest. I'm proud to introduce Dr. Michelle Maidenberg. Michelle has over 30 years of clinical experience and has had the honor of helping countless individuals transform their lives. She uncovers the core of emotional avoidance and anxiety that gets in the way of individuals living their best lives and the lives they want. She is an accomplished speaker and author.  Michelle, that's a pretty short introduction for all the things that you've accomplished, but thank you for taking your time to be with us today.

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Shane Jacob

Right on. Well, tell us a little bit more about you for people who don't know you. Or just, and then tell us, you know, where did you begin and how did you get to be where you are?

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

Thank you. So, I wear many hats. You know, I have a private practice in Westchester County in New York. And then I also am the founder of a nonprofit called Through My Eyes, THRU. And it offers free clinically guided videotaping for chronically, medically ill individuals who want to leave a video legacy for their children and loved ones. So, I've done over 300 videos, which has been really incredibly meaningful. I'm actually looking to restructure. So, looking for partners and anybody who's interested. I really want to expand it so it's more nationally based. That's really important, important part of who I am.

I teach at NYU. I teach a class on integrating mindfulness practice into clinical practice, which I love doing. And I also, my new book is Ace Your Life, Unleash Your Best Self and Live the Life You Want. And it's predicated, ACE stands for Acceptance, Compassion and Empowerment. And I actually just produced the audio book and I narrated it, which is very exciting.

And then my side jobs, I blog for Psychology Today and I publish an article every month or so. I'm almost up to 2 million readers. So, I'm really excited about that. And I just published something on Monday on trauma. And I also have a YouTube channel, and I publish a new guided meditation every Thursday morning at 11am. So like I said, I do a lot of different things. 

Shane Jacob

Wow. You got a lot of stuff going on.

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

Yes. I do, I do. All good things.

Shane Jacob
If you, would you just begin by telling us about the emotional avoidance, you know, and what is it? Tell us about that and how it shows up?

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

Sure. So, I did, you know, several years ago, a TED talk on circumventing emotional avoidance. And what that means, because it sounds a little ambiguous, is we avoid discomfort and negativity. Now, what does that mean? You know, our brains are wired, and our neurocognition is wired to protect us from danger and discomfort.

Now, when we say danger, it's perceived danger. Sometimes it's actual danger, but sometimes it's actually perceived danger – what our brain thinks is dangerous. That could be an association that we have from our childhood. That could be something that we construct in our mind based on our history, based on how we were raised social, culturally and otherwise. That includes negative emotions because negative emotions inherently is very uncomfortable. You know, they're very uncomfortable.

So, what am I talking about? Sadness, disappointment, frustration, anger. And I could go on and on, right? We have a smorgasbord of negative emotions. Now, when we, okay, deny, repress, and so forth, which is kind of mind games our minds do, we're also cutting ourselves off from positive emotions too. Our brains can’t compartmentalize and say, I don't want these negative emotions, but I'm gonna only have these positive ones. It doesn't work that way when we numb out, or when we distance ourselves or cut ourselves off from negative emotions, we're doing the same with our positive emotions.

So, we're not really living our best life. We're not being our authentic self. And that typically, you know, will unfortunately trail into our behaviors. It affects the way we behave. It affects negatively our relationships, you know, and it leads to a lot of stuckness. So, what I write about, and what I'm all about, is how to get through stuckness.

Shane Jacob

Okay, I have a question in that. So, when you said when we numb out, or when we something, you can't experience the positive. So, I think I have a grasp, I understand that when we numb out, we kind of don't feel anything because we're numb. But what if we're just trying to avoid? I'm wondering if you could just talk more about just not being able to experience the positive and the things that we're doing, to not have that happen.  

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg‍

Yeah. So, avoidance is a big part of an adaptation or a coping skill, right? Avoidance. Avoidance takes on many forms. We could distract, right? We could repress. There's a lot of things our mind, and by the way, sometimes that's really helpful. So, I could tell you personally, when I was a child, I did a lot of repressing, a lot. But guess what? It made me into the person I am today. So it was really valuable and helpful for me, but guess what? As an adult, not so much.

So, I find myself slipping into repressive states where I literally, I've gotten much better. So, things kind of come up for me and come into my consciousness, awareness, a lot sooner than they used to. Sometimes it would be months or even year, you know? So, my mind was protecting me and that was great, but guess what? Avoiding negative emotions is actually not helpful and could be actually counterproductive. Why?

Negative emotions are beneficial because it actually connects us to what's important to us, and it connects us to our higher order values. And we need to know about that so that we're actually behaving in a way that we're proud of, that increases our self-confidence, that gets us closer to being the person we want to be. So when I am disappointed, for example, that is such important information. And I could actually be proud of my disappointment.

If I, let's say, wasn't my best self in terms of my parenting, right? I had a bad parenting moment, a negative parenting moment. If I'm disappointed by that, that's a good thing. I could be proud of myself that I didn't feel like I really leaned into my parenting values in the way that I wanted to that particular day. And I could say to myself, you know what? I really wasn't my best self. And I'm disappointed that, you know, I got triggered and I acted out. And tomorrow, I'm gonna do a better job. I'm gonna really focus and be present with my parenting because that's how I wanna be and who I wanna be.

Shane Jacob

So is the key, I mean, it seems like for most of us, it's not just what our brain is feeding us to try to be comfortable and try to avoid pain. It's not just that, which is, however big that is. On top of that, it seems like we kind of have conditioning that says you're supposed to feel good. The goal is to feel good all the time. And the idea that to hone in on the negative, it just doesn't seem to be too popular. Even if we hear it, that doesn't sound all that appealing on the outside.

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

It doesn't feel good either. It doesn't feel good. I mean, who wants to sit with like being disappointed in myself? That feels awful. That leads to me perseverating. That leads to self-doubt and et cetera. But it depends on your mindset, right? So, I could actually sit there and say to myself, I'm so proud of myself that I'm disappointed. Like, would I want to be okay with this? Would I want to be okay that I acted out of my child? No, I'm so proud of myself that I'm disappointed by this because that shows that my parenting is important to me, and that shows that I don't want to be living this way. That's not okay. I don't want to be living in this mediocrity. I actually want to improve and enhance my parenting.

And I could then go over to my child and say, you know what? I'm so sorry. I really wasn't my best self. And I am going to really try to be better. I'm going to make an effort to be better because you deserve better. I deserve better. I deserve to be proud of myself. You deserve a mother who's more attentive, let's say. Right?

So, there's a trickle down of facts. And the only way that we act on behalf of our best selves is if we have increased confidence, if we have self-belief, if we have self-love, if we have self-compassion, self-efficacy. That is the only way that we're acting on behalf of being our best self, not when we berate ourselves, beat ourselves up, you know, etcetera, because it leads to self-doubt, leads to self-deprecation, and on and on.

Shane Jacob

Okay, so you're suggesting that the way that we frame what's happening. For example, in your example, if I had a moment with my kid that I was a bad parent, and I recognize that I want to embrace the feeling that it feels bad. And then I want to frame it, or make meaning and tell myself my story is going to be, “Hey, you feeling bad about this is a good thing. Good job, Shane, you're feeling bad because that means that this is important to you.” And then somehow, it's gonna help me, what, to have the confidence to go and repair and change?

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

Yes, and to change your behavior, you know, looking forward into the future. You talked about something called toxic positivity before, right? Like we have these glorified messages all over the place on how we're supposed to always be feeling good. Yes, you know, I wrote an article on the, like, how, you know, about toxic positivity. And I wrote about like how positive affirmations and gratitude and all of these things, although they're extremely helpful for many people, there's an underlying recurrent message is that we should be happy all the time. And when we're not, there's something wrong with us and we should quickly become happy when we're unhappy.

And again, no. Based on our humanism, we are entitled, and it actually is useful for us to go into a spectrum of emotions. That's being a human being. We don't have to push it away. We don't have to deny it. We don't have to distract from it. We need to embrace it because that is what contributes to our humanity.

 Shane Jacob

That is such a big, and not really, I mean, do you find that people embrace it? Because I mean, I don't think a lot of people are really focusing on this.

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

Now, I have to tell you, when I give my patients permission to feel how they feel, to think how they think. And letting them know that they don't have to act on behalf of their thoughts and feelings, but rather their values, and their behavior is the only thing that they're in control of. I have to tell you, literally, I see people, like it looks like bricks were lifted off their shoulders. I'm not kidding.

And when I embrace that, when I learned that, and I've cultivated my life around that, wow. I mean, I'll give you an example that happened to me yesterday. I was talking to a friend, and they told me that they, again, talking about parenting, they told me that they had this parenting thing that happened. And I felt like pretty awful for them, right? And I'm a professional and I have all this knowledge and right? I was trying to be helpful and useful. And I got on the phone with them in the evening, and I started to ask them about this thing that they brought up in their text.

And they became extremely anxious. And they were like, “I don't want to talk about this. I'm about to go to sleep. And then I'm not going to be able to fall asleep because this is going to be on my mind. This is not the time to talk about it.” And then like bit my head off. And I sat there, and of course, I felt very wounded. And I felt like the wind was knocked out of me because all I'm trying to do is be helpful. Right? And I got off the phone, and then they tried to, like, engage me in conversation. And I just could not. I was like, no. So I said, you know what? You seem tired, like, go to sleep.

And when I got off the phone, I started to write a text. My first text was, you know, “How could you talk to me that way?” And, “I was just trying to be helpful.” Right? And then I deleted it. And then the second text was again, like, it had a flavor of that, like blaming. Right? And then I stopped, and I said, “Human beings are imperfect.” I said that to myself. And my upset and my woundedness, okay, is connected to my value of friendship and kindness. And I'm happy that I'm feeling this way because my friendship and me, my willingness and my desire to be helpful is so formative to me that getting that kind of reaction was wounding.

And I wrote back to them, and I said to them, “I am so sorry that I brought this up. Of course, I never would have done that if I knew that it would’ve resulted in you feeling anxious before you go to sleep, you know. And I really hope you sleep well. You know, and I'm happy to talk to you about it when it's a better time.

Shane Jacob

Wow.  Well, wow.

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

And the person, by the way, if I didn't do that, I wouldn't have been able to fall asleep. I just want you to know, because all I want is always to be so helpful and kind. And I would have been so disappointed that it didn't come across that way. Right? And that I upset the person. And then I would, and then also with the anger, like, how dare you talk to me that way? Like, you know, like you should know my intentions. You know me, you know, and like, you should be able to read my mind. And how dare you, right? Like the ego takes over too.

And I got a text back, “Thank you so much for understanding. And I really appreciate your kindness.” And, whew. I felt, first of all, I felt so empowered because I didn't let those overarching wounded feelings take over and affect my behavior. I connected to the person, and I was able to be compassionate because I was able to understand that their parenting is so formative to them that they would get anxious because they weren't in line with their parenting values. And I was appreciating that about them rather than condoning them, and what a difference.

Shane Jacob

So that's a great example. And I'm thinking that in that example that you gave that there was some steps that maybe you could break down. Because there, so what exactly are the steps, or what do you recommend for steps to cope when we're feeling this way? Because I know sometimes I don't have time for steps. I mean, I'm kind of reacting right now. So, well, do tell.

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

You always have time for steps.

Shane Jacob

Haha, tell us about that.

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

Your relationships are important to you, you have time for steps. And by the way, what I just told you took all a matter of like five minutes. I'm not even kidding because it's not intuitive. It is not intuitive. Like when we get triggered, and by the way, that's my next book. When we get triggered, like we go from zero to five, like in a second. And if I say to you, oh like, how did you go from zero to five? And this is true of any habit, whether it's overeating or whatever, right? “I didn't, I didn't think I just, it was in my mouth. I don't know how it got there.” Right? Yeah. We say that about everything. That is not the truth. Because when I slow people down and I say, “What were you really thinking?” They're able to say to me, “Well, you know, I shouldn't have had that because, you know, I had enough calories today.” Or, you know, all the kind of rationalizations that go through our minds in the interim that we're not paying attention to ‘cause we're on autopilot. Right?

So, just so the steps, really, is to be very intuitive and to have self-awareness. You know, and that could be “What's going on?” Even asking yourself the question, “What's going on in my thoughts? Like, what am I thinking? How am I feeling? And what's going on in my body? And what behavior is being prompted from all of that?” And that takes all of a second, literally.

So I knew I felt in that moment rage, a lot of rage. Like my body was like, you know, like I was, you know, if somebody was there, I could, you know, punch them out. Hahaha, and I felt it. I felt like the steam and the heat coming up through my face. I felt my heart palpitations. Like, I felt it. I was like, oh boy, like we don't want to be reacting right now. Not a good idea. Right. So, I said to myself, like, and I went through that step. I said, “What is going on for me right now?” And I realized that I wasn't being compassionate to myself or the person. And, I stopped and I used a queue. My queue was, “Everybody is an imperfect human.” That was my queue for myself. And that's what I've cultivated because that helps me to tap into my compassion when I feel like I'm being dis-compassionate, which tends to happen, right? Because when I was younger, when I was a kid, I felt like the other all the time. So my way of kind of feeling accepted and whatever was to other people. So, I know that about myself.

So, when I'm able to recognize that, like, “You should know how I feel. Like, what you said was wrong.” Right? I'm should-ing, I'm should-ing and should-ing. Yeah, that's taking away from my compassion. And I know that about myself because I've learned that. And that's not who I am authentically. That is based on my triggers. That's based on my, that's not my authentic self. That is my possessed self, literally. Right?

So, once you get that self, and by the way, my book, you know, this is my life's work. So, it's a culmination of all of those exercises and tools and skills that help to cultivate what I'm talking about.

Shane Jacob

Okay. All right. You ready to walk me through what's going on with me? You ready for an example?

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

Yes.

Shane Jacob

Okay. So right before this podcast, right before I said hello to you… Within a minute or two before this call started, this episode, I had an employee, who he's a new employee, and he couldn't cash his paycheck. He actually gets a paper paycheck and he couldn't cash it because our payroll people had misspelled his name. So, we had asked yesterday, the gal in the office said, could you correct this so we can give him a new paycheck, so he can cash his check. It's really important to this kid, right? So, she fired back this morning. They said, you know, she, the lady at the payroll said that, you know, I've corrected it, and you shouldn't need anything else and some big long thing. But she didn't send a new PDF that we could give him a paycheck.

So, I got on the phone with her. Now, I have one minute till podcast time. The kid’s out here, was really important and he needs, he needs money, you know? And so, my conversation to her is not how I… And I got off the phone. I was short, and I was super reactive. She said, well, most people, you know, whatever she said, most people don't use a PDF check to cash a check, and I just kind of lost it. I'm like, “Look, I need this now. It's misspelled. It was your thing, not our mistake. I need it now.”

And, so, what happened, okay, now I'm getting off the phone. Now I'm one minute, and I'm looking at myself going, I was super short. I was super rude. I ended the call, “Goodbye,” click. And then, and it's not how I want to present myself. So now I'm just trying to deal with… You know, so, so tell me, help me through this.

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

I love that example, yay. So, I'm gonna say to you, like I would say to you, “What is going on for you? Like, how are you, what's your thoughts? What's your feelings?” Right? “What's going on in your body?” Right? “And, what's prompting the behavior?” And I would kind of slow you down, right? I would like literally, literally in the moment, slow you down, okay? And then I would say to you, right? “There's pain in values and values in pain.”

Right, you are triggered in the moment. Now we have this sense that people trigger us. No, we get triggered. People don't trigger us. And when you get triggered, that is amazing because it leads you to understand what still needs to be healed within you. Okay, so I would say to you, right, like I said, there's pain of values, values and pain. “What value is getting rubbed up against for you that's leading you to have that intense reaction?” Because that's old, that's not new. And it could be a number of things, I'm guessing, right? Because you were really looking out for this kid, right? And you were maybe feeling, like, anxious or frustrated because this kid was in need of this money. And that was prompting something in you. So, what value do you think that was rubbing up against for you?

Shane Jacob

So, there is truth in that. Right now I have so much, like, I almost feel shame. I'm like disappointed, you know, in me because I don't want to treat people like that. But coming from, but I do...

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

So, thank you. Let me stop you there.

Shane Jacob

Okay.

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

So good for you. I'm so proud of you that you're disappointed by your behavior. Because you, that really exemplifies what a caring, kind human you are that you want to be respectful towards others and that you're not okay with being rude and disrespectful. So, all the power to you. And, you could actually amend that, right?

So, there's things you could do, and that would, you know what you need to do, right? You could call her and apologize, right? You could really, you know, kind of think about what that kind of brought up for you. So amazing that you're so conscientious about your behavior towards others. Amazing.

Shane Jacob

Oh, wow.

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

Yeah. So, but let's get to the root, right? Is it, it could be like her behavior. In other words, somebody maybe, you know, maybe taking people seriously, or expediting, you know, when somebody's in pain or in need ,you know, or advocacy for the underdog, or I don't know what that is for you. That it's rubbing up against something very fundamental to you. And I wonder what that is.

Shane Jacob

It could be, I'm thinking that either could be, I take a lot of personal concern with being very clear that we pay people on time every week, period. You don't have to worry about your check cashing except in this in this one case. And so, I consider that, but I don't…

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

So, get deeper. What is that about for you? What value does that speak to? Right? Like saying you're going to do something and following through on it. Right? And it could be, like you said, it could be responsibility. Right? It could be conscientiousness. It could be, you know, what is that for you?

Shane Jacob

Yeah, I think that I want to present that I am dependable and responsible. When you come to work for me, that you know that what, that you know, there's no… I want to be dependable. I want you to see me as dependable.

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

Beautiful. Okay. So Shane, that is an incredible value of yours, really. Yeah, I mean, to be dependable and responsible, gosh, everyone should be that way. That's amazing, right? So, when that's rubbed up against, that is gonna cause you pain, and you're gonna get triggered and react to that. So, if you were to circle back to her, right, you can say that. You could say, God, you know what? I'm so sorry for being short with you. I realize that being, you know, the perception that I'm dependable and responsible. That value is so core to me that when that's rubbed up against, I really have a very strong visceral reaction to that. And I took it out on you. So, and that wasn't fair because I really want to be a kind and caring person. That's who I authentically am. Yeah, so I am really sorry. I'm really sorry that I acted out that way. Yeah, I apologize for that.

And then you could say to yourself, “Gosh, me being dependable and responsible is so critically important to me that that triggered me, and I am going to express that in a compassionate way next time. And I'm not going to let the anger and rage take hold of me because I'm going to be more clear about that for myself.”

Shane Jacob

That is incredible, and I am going to make that call when this episode ends. I'm going to make that call because you know what? You saying that, and me hearing it… It's changing the way that I'm, it's changing ,like, “Oh, you feel that way and it's okay and that's a good thing, you know. But it's also okay that, you know, that I can go back and fix it. I can make amends because I don't want to treat people that way.” So, super helpful. I mean, I think you’ve unpacked it. Excellent.

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

You could have an uncaring moment and not be an uncaring human. All that happened in that moment isn’t rubbed up against fundamentally who you are and who you want to be. And that's okay. You're human. Like we all have our human moments.

Shane Jacob

That is an incredible impromptu moment you had here with me. I appreciate that.

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

Good. That's the way it works.

Shane Jacob

Right on. That is how it works. I think that did work very well. I'm excited to make that call. I'm feeling a little bit nervous about it, but I'm going to do it. I'm going to make that call.

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

Okay, you got me curious how it's going to go.

Shane Jacob

I'll send you a note after. That's the next episode, the follow-up of how the call went.

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

Alright, haha.

Shane Jacob

Michelle, I've kind of talked a little bit to this, and you kind of went through this in my example of going through this impromptu deal here today, which I really appreciate. The question is, like, what are the steps? How do we cultivate this self-acceptance and self-compassion to be able to increase our well-being?

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

Yeah. So again, that is my entire book. And I talk about the barriers. A lot of my book is research based. And then of course, I add a lot of skills and tools. You know, acceptance, we kind of think of acceptance because that word sounds a little bit, again, ambiguous. And we think about it as, “Oh, we need to accept who we are, you know, the good, the bad, the ugly.” It's not that. It's kind of noticing who you are.

So again, you notice that you became rageful or kind of, again, irritable, I'm going to say, when your value was rubbed up against. And for me, I felt wounded when my value was rubbed up against. Now, that doesn't mean that there's something wrong with us. It means that in those given moments, just because, let's say, I'm disappointed and I could be, you know, dis-compassionate in that moment doesn't mean I'm a dis-compassionate person.

And that's what we do. We take one moment of behavior, and we actually exaggerate it to who we are and what we represent. And that is not at all. That's not a truth. The truth is we could be dis-compassionate in a moment and still be a compassionate person. The issue is we do not learn these skills. It's not taught anywhere. I mean, in our school system, the stress is on academics. I remember, I could tell you in my kids' school, I stressed to them the importance of having curricula around social-emotional intelligence, life skills, and I even gave them a way to do it at no cost. And you know what? Guess what? Guess what it came up against? I'm sorry, we don't have time. Right? Academics are more formative and that's the most important.

You know, constantly up against this. The issue is, if we don't culminate these skills, it affects our relationships, it affects our careers, it affects everything about us. And I see, I see kids who learn these skills, and they thrive as young adults, and they thrive as adults, because I've seen people over a period of many years. And I see adults who are suffering because they've never ever culminated these skills.

Even parenting, if you think about it, how do we learn our parenting skills? We learn by modeling how our parents parented us. And how did they learn from their parents parenting them? I could tell you, my family, there's a lot of intergenerational trauma. Gosh.

Shane Jacob

Michelle, I have a question about this, and that is, you saying that, you know, when we do behavior that we wish we didn't, okay, rather than say to ourselves, “I'm such an idiot, I can't, you know, I'm flawed. It his, I that…” I mean, is there ever a time that we simply did bad behavior? Or are you suggesting that every time that, to tie it to, in order to give ourselves compassion, to tie it to a value and that we can do that every time?

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

Absolutely, we're not bad people. Just because we act out in a negative way, it doesn't make us bad. That is so self-deprecating. If we see ourselves as bad every time, we act in a way that's not in accordance to our values. That makes us remote from our values. Again, that doesn't give us the confidence and the self-belief that we could be better. That's part of the problem. Like, that doesn't lend to our self-efficacy.

If I don't believe that I could do better and I could be better, I'm not going to bother. I'm just not; I'm going to shut down. So, I don't believe, like, listen, this is research. Like there are people in the jail system, okay? And if you do a survey in the jail system, and this has been proven, I think over 90, up to 95% of people who are incarcerated have trauma. Yes.

And the difference between a person who thrives and is resilient and those who don't are having one person in their life. One person. It doesn't matter if it was a coach. It doesn't matter if it was a grandmother. It doesn't matter who it is, that actually believed in them. No one's born into this world with bad behavior. I'm sorry. Look at little kids. Observe little kids. They are curious. They are playful. Like, they could be sitting in the mud, like throwing mud at each other. And they are pigs in shit, like literally, right?

We're the ones who come up and thwart their creativity and we say, “Stop it, you're not supposed to do that. That's horrible. What are you doing?” You know, like, “You're getting all dirty.” They don't care. They don't care that they're getting all dirty. They're just having fun, and all they are is perpetually in the present moment and enjoying themselves. We're the ones who thwarts those, you know, those pieces of those gems. It's our fault.

Shane Jacob

That is so incredible. Last thoughts today. This has been a super conversation. I appreciate it. What would your last thoughts? I can't believe the time's already gone; we could talk for forever. What would you like to leave us with today on The Horsemanship Journey, Michelle?

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

You know, just that life is, you know, I can't say this enough, and only because I have a practice where I see people who really suffer, you could imagine, right? That's why people come to me. And life is so short and so fleeting. Like, I cannot say that every moment, we have these moments that we could lean into being our best self. We could lean into helping others and having a life full of meaning. And we could always make improvements. Like, we're all works in progress.

And I encourage people… I always say, like, and I feel proud of this. If I died tomorrow, I would die with a smile on my face. And I really do feel that way. And I wish and I pray that everyone feels that way. Like, that is the way to be living. And I don't care if, God forbid, your ending is at you 40 or it's at like 95, you know, every moment is accounted for and needs to be taken seriously. And again, we see what's going on in the world…It's, there's like, suffering all over the place.

Shane Jacob

Yeah. Michelle, thank you again. I appreciate you. Where can people, tell us a little bit, another, the book again? I can't wait to get it myself and hear it. I'm going to think I'm going to try the audio. Tell it…

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

Here it is, Ace Your Life.

Shane Jacob

There we go. And then where do people find out more about you?

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

My website is a great place because it has like, all the information. But it's my name; it's www.michelle, which is two L's, Maidenberg,M-A-I-D-E-N-B-E-R-G.com and it has links to my books. And again, you could find me on YouTube. You could find me on Psychology Today. I, yeah, I just want to help people. That's my mission in life.

Shane Jacob

Well, you've helped us here today. We appreciate your contribution to The Horsemanship Journey podcast and to the world. Like I said, I'm looking forward to your book. Thank you again, ladies and gentlemen. Michelle Maidenberg.

Dr. Michelle Maidenberg

Thank you for having me on. It was so nice to meet you.