Transcript for this weeks message

Shane Jacob

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this episode of The Horsemanship Journey Podcast. I'm Shane Jacob, your host, and I appreciate you taking your time to join us today.

The Horsemanship Journey is proud to present Marcus Higgs. Marcus is a communication coach for parents and preteens. His work equips parents with actionable tools to guide their kids through this transition in away that nurtures self-esteem and helps them move through fears holding them back from pursuing their dreams. He's on a mission to globally mend the parent to mend parent-child relationships through communications and the stories they share. Marcus, thank you so much for taking your time to be with us today.

Marcus Higgs

Shane, it's wonderful to be here. I'm looking forward to this conversation because I've not talked with a, I was going to say a cowboy, but a person who connects horse behavior with human behavior. And I feel this is going to be very interesting.

Shane Jacob

Right on. Well, we appreciate it and we're excited to hear your story. So maybe just begin with that. Tell us your story, where you came from, where it started, back to the beginning of and how you got to be where you are today.

Marcus Higgs

Sure, sure. So, I am a third culture kid, they may say. It just means my passport doesn't necessarily match my cultural upbringing. My mom's from the Philippines, my dad's from the Bahamas, and that's why I'm here now. But I was born in California, right next to Nevada. And, I've grown up in the Bahamas. I studied communication journalism in Alabama. That's what I did for university. Straightway went off to South Korea to be a missionary, actually. And, I say my understanding of the divine grew. Religion was never, spirituality understanding, all of that, was never burdensome to me. And the reason I mention that is because it informs a lot of the work that I do now. I never push my beliefs on anybody. B-Y-O-B, bring your own beliefs. But in the work that I do, looking at identity and how community matters, people who believe in a greater power, a higher force, it goes a long way.

I taught in Saudi Arabia, Spain, Thailand, and during that time I gained an understanding of how humans work. I taught English, and I remember coming out of class one time I said, “This feels a lot like therapy.” And my chairperson said, ‘That's why it's called the humanities, Marcus. We're teaching them how to be human.”

In conversations with parents and in conversations with the kids, I'm now with my aging parents and how can I give back? I do life coaching, except I use the thing that's most relevant to the parent, which is their child. And that's why now I'm a communication coach for parents of preteens, hoping to nurture and bring forth the greatness that's within. And I believe we do that through communication and the stories we share with each other.

Shane Jacob

So that kind of answered the question of how you got to be a communication coach. But, so you use something called, Marcus, you use something that you call the show up framework. So, I was wondering if you could maybe just begin with that, and tell us what is the show up framework?

Marcus Higgs

Sure, sure. The show up framework, it takes a bit of positive psychology, takes a bit of self-determination theory, and it looks at my skill with education and communication, and it helps the parent, as the framework says, show up for their child to bring forth their greatness. The root of the word parent and education means to bring forth. So, we're assuming there's beauty in there already, and we're creating the environment for that to express itself. And each of the letters goes through a way for the parent to show up. And the parent is regulating themselves. They're putting their oxygen mask on first, so to say.

So, “S” starts with a strong identity. All behavior comes from an identity. And in that I break it down, but it means your virtues and your values. Virtues are with all cultures, all people, all beliefs. And, they're the 24 characteristics of VIA, Virtues In Action, that everybody has. And we talk about that, but then values are what's important to you. For some people it's finances, other people that might be family, for other people that might be faith. Everybody has what's important to them, and that's where they're working towards. But when you understand that, you have a strong identity, internal identity.

After that we have “H,” hold space for critical thinking and collaboration. Oftentimes when kids are going through trouble they say, “What's wrong with me?” It's like, no, this is a part of growth. This is how we grow. There's a challenge, and as your parent I'm here to help guide you through that. And then we use autonomy supportive parenting. It's an approach to parenting, whereas you let the person express themselves, and you support them in that expression. It's not gentle parenting. It's not conscious parenting, but it's another approach. And that said, I respect the wisdom of the parent. Whatever approach you want to choose, however, what we do is we support them. Autonomy supportive. We support them in expressing themselves.

Shane Jacob

Marcus, let me interrupt you just for a minute. I was wondering if you could comment a little bit more about bridging the gap and getting young, getting kids to understand the idea that it's not my fault. Things that happen to them and that the way that they feel, a lot of times they believe that, we believe as young people, kids believe that is as a result of something being wrong with them. Right? And something is their fault because something is wrong and so that these things that are happening to them is because of something that, you know, the way that they are that they may not even have control of. So, I was wondering if you could just talk a little bit more about that process that you summed up.

Marcus Higgs

Sure, sure. You have to remember kids are very self-focused. Their whole experience of their life from zero to let's say 12, before adolescence, has been about them. Their parents have been focused on them. So, when they start to face trouble or stress or challenges, of course their natural thinking is, yeah, what's wrong with me? Like what is being different here?

Now I see you have a bit of wisdom on your side, Shane, and you know it's when we go through transitions that that's when we're tested. That's when our identity is really... We figure out who we are, right? And that's how you, I assume, I don't know, but your expertise, that's how you break a horse. It's in... I say everything that eventually grows must first break. It's not intentionally breaking to destroy, but it's rather to stress so that the person can understand who their identity is to meet those challengesAnd it's changing the narrative of the person to say, hey, again, it's not you, this is a natural aspect of life. This is how a seed grows. This is how a butterfly is formed. And I'm here to support you through it.

So yeah, that's how you shift the attention off of them of what's wrong with me, but rather how might I meet this challenge? What's in me to meet this challenge?

Shane Jacob

Right on.

Marcus Higgs

All right. And “O” is opening up communication. The quality of your communication is directly related to the quality of your life. Your ability to speak with and connect with others and your ability to speak with yourself to meet challenges.

“W” is wonder and explore this world together. In education, we call it project-based learning, but what it is, it's learning how to do hard things for a long time as it relates to your virtues and values. What's important to you.

And finally, it's “U-P.” “UP” is unveil your potential, which means celebrate. We don't celebrate enough. So, when we see an evidence of our example, celebrate.

Shane Jacob

Right on. Yeah, that's a, that's a big one. I think it's a little bit hard. A lot of us, as parents or leaders in one aspect or another, we're constantly focused on what needs to change, what needs to be better. And so, we may have accomplished five things that were accomplishments, but still there's five other things that we need to do, or three other things. And I'm, now that we've got them done, now it's time to focus on the next three. And then as soon as the next three are done, there's another five.

And so we're constantly, you know, the only focus, if I'm not careful, I know I'm speaking for me, but I also see that sometimes with parents is, the only thing that we can see is what's wrong and what needs to fix. And people don't do well in that environment when you're the leader with only that aspect without… They don't feel good about what's good because it's constantly, something's always wrong.

Marcus Higgs

Let's pull that thread just a little bit more. There's this doctor called Daniel Amin. He calls it ANTS, Automatic Negative Thoughts. We're just looking for what's wrong. You're right. Now, if I want you to enjoy being you, Shane, I believe there's beauty in you. And if I want you to enjoy being you, meeting the challenges, I'm gonna give... I'm gonna bring your awareness to how your character has overcome challenges before.

Again, as adults, we have these, we have these stories of, “Oh yeah, I remember that time, or I remember that time.” So, what it is, as a kid, we need to bring their awareness to evidence and examples of saying, “Hey, this is how you overcame that when you're having this problem.” And so, they start telling themselves stories of how they were able to meet the challenge. As opposed to, “Oh, what's wrong? What's wrong?” Like you said, we're always on to the next one. We're always on to the next problem, the next problem.

Now, there's a little bit more forward thinking, but just think, there's a future Shane, or there's a future Marcus, who's looking at this moment right now. And right now I'm living in this moment of, I'm showing up as best Marcus, and I can make this what we call a hero borrow. I can make this into a story later on where I was proud to be me, be me fully. Yeah, something to think about.

Shane Jacob

Right on. Yeah, appreciate that. So, you talk about in your media and on your website, you talk about how parents can reframe stressors to turn them into opportunities for development for their kids. So, talk about that. What about, it seems like there's lots of stressors and, so how do, what do mean by that?

Marcus Higgs

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Two things come to mind. So, like I told you, I taught English for a long time. And in English, we would study stories, Romeo and Juliet, the classics and whatnot, and even contemporary stories. And in every story, there's conflict. Now, in communication, we say nothing's wrong with conflict, but rather, conflict doesn't define the relationship. How we manage the conflict defines it. It's giving parents the tools so that they can reframe what stress means to a child.

A lot of actually the mental health issues that we have now…Well, you know, I'll kick it back to another author. There's another author named Madeline Levine. She wrote a book called The Price of Privilege. That's why it's called “first world problems,” right? There's also another book, The Coddling of America, but people don't know how to do hard things. And that's not me looking down on them. I'm saying this is what human development is.

Life is about managing stress. And if we're not taught how to manage it when stakes are low, we won't be able to manage it when stakes are high. And that's why there's a lot of, I say folding of people. Now, there area lot of things that have gotten us here. One of them, I'm not against technology, but one of them is social media. I mean, we're connecting on social media right now, so I'm not against it per se. But if there's not a plan to actually meet, or how to actually use the tool of social media, it can get out of hand. And the person's, I point here in the sense of psyche or individual sense of self will not be formed.

And really quickly, we've noticed since 2012, it's in the book, The Anxious Generation, kids are forming their personality behind the screen, and likes and challenges and so on. But when that screen closes, the question is who am I? And if I don't know who I am, I'm not gonna be able to meet the stresses, the natural stresses of life.

Back to your original point though. Yeah, yeah. Back to your original point. How do we shift that point of view? I work with the parents. I let the parents live their life and live their story, and then learn how to communicate it with their kid without being preachy.

Shane Jacob

Right on. Yeah, it seems like, subordinates and children both, seems like they pay more attention to, they really pay attention to what's inside of our hearts and our actions, both, as much as they do, or more than they do, excuse me, than somebody who sounds like they're giving a sermon ,maybe.

Marcus Higgs

May I ask this, Shane? And this is just out of my curiosity, respecting your expertise. In finding a wild horse… Now I use the term breaking, I don't know if that's acceptable or not, but how would you then coax the horse or build rapport with the horse to actually be able to mount it or ride it?

Shane Jacob

Yeah, so that's quite a project right there.

Marcus Higgs

Touchy, okay.

 Shane Jacob

So, it's a big process. I have nothing wrong with the word broke. Some people have tried to change it and have a negative connotation around the words breaking a horse. To me, it just means that the horse is extremely developed. I think I prefer, you know, that we develop horses, which is true. We establish a relationship and then we develop that horse's abilities, and we do that through trust, right. So, the whole thing is just… It's just like any relationship. And so that's why, you know, The Horsemanship Journey is, shows how horses, how they relate with each other and with human beings. It shows those principles, which are, you know, they are natural law principles, that if we apply then we can have more successful relationships ourselves.

So, that's a little touch base on that. But I wanted to ask you, Marcus, you talk about “you time” as a key concept in your framework, but you say it's like different than quality time. So, this “you time” is especially critical for teens. And so, I was wondering if you could just talk a little bit more about this “you time” idea.

Marcus Higgs

Sure, well, “you time,” and just to recognize what you said, this, all of the work I do, is based on trust. And it's how do we develop trust in the formative years before the stressors of teenage kick in or adolescence kick in. In “you time,” it's one-to-one time which focuses on, it is quality time, but there's a little nuance. The focus is... It's child led. And when I say child led, it's focused on the child and their problems of how they want to lead it. Again, offering that autonomy and saying, “Okay, well, where do you want to go with this? What do you want to do?” So that I might enter your interests? Right.

And another thing about it is that it's regulated. And when I mean regulated, it's on the calendar at a regular interval. Okay. It's not that the kid puts it on their calendar, but rather we're making a date with our kid, in a sense. Or we're creating a ritual around it. One of the things about managing stress is if you know when the stress is coming, and you know the degree to which it's coming, you can better prepare for it, so it doesn't catch you off guard. That's how you build trust.

So, what does this actually look like practically? Let's say every week after you're coming back from the soccer match, you stop at the same Orange Julius or the same restaurant, get the same drink. And it's a moment of, let's decompress. Talk to me; what's going on inside your life? And there are queues that we can go through. I want to say queues or prompts to engage your kid.

It could be five minutes before they go to bed every day, just a check-in. Personally, with my own parents, every morning there's, I say ritual. But ritual is just a habit that you give meaning to. So, it's meaningful to me. I know why I'm doing it. And we do these certain things. You know what mean? And it just comes, again, comes down to the principle, you make time for the things you care about. If you have a higher power, you often times bookend your day with it. If you have going on a date night, it’s every Tuesday night at this time. It's just being intentional with your kid while giving them autonomy and meeting them in their interests. It could be a walk around the block once a week. Again, you get to decide what it is, but being intentional and putting on the calendar.

Shane Jacob

Right on. Marcus, your book, you talk about autonomy and supportive parenting. I mean, what specifically is, how does your approach really differ from what is traditional ideas? And how much of an impact is, talk about the difference in the impact.

Marcus Higgs

Some of the differences of autonomy, supportive parenting, and look it up, it's an actual thing. That approach, some key aspects are one, respecting the wisdom of the person, of the child that you're dealing with. And when I say respecting the wisdom, it means they're going through the experience. You might have more experience, you could be the expert, but you can't meet their needs until they bring an awareness to their needs, and they say it in their own words. So, it's active listening, first of all, to gain an understanding of how this person sees the world.

Two, it's bringing them into the solution process, collaborative process. So, when they have buy-in, they know that you're interested, they know that it's relevant. And then, okay, now we can work together, and we can align our desires. Because as a parent, my desire is for your wellbeing, your safety because I know you're eventually going to fly the coop. But actually, even independence is not the final form, it's interdependence. It's knowing that you're independent, that you might help me, and I'm independent, that I might help you.

 Shane Jacob

That's awesome. Just to come back to your first point there. I mean, for, you know, parents, we just get dropped into this thing. And if we don't read and we don't study and we don't pay attention, we don't find manuals and ways to do it. It's pretty easy to have a default of look, I'm twice, five times your age, twice your age, whatever it is. And I know you don't have anything relevant to say. You listen to what I have to say, period, end of story. And so, this idea of giving value to basically honoring your perspective, this active listening. And I think you said, I think your words were something about their wisdom.

Marcus Higgs

Honoring their wisdom, yeah.

Shane Jacob

Okay, a lot of times we don't, okay, well, yeah, a lot of times I don't think parents are honoring them. We just don't think they have much wisdom to be able to honor. And so, I think it's something that we're just missing the boat on a lot of times.

Marcus Higgs

Now Shane, I will note right here, autonomy supportive parenting keeps the long term in mind. Because I want to respect that in the moment when this kid is saying something and you know it's wrong, it's hard for you to bite your tongue also, right? Especially when they're getting it from some other source of some guy online or something.

Now it's how do I manage my energy, my, how do I manage my communication that I can create space for you to make mistakes when the stakes are low. To probably go waywardly, but I still am creating this space for you to be yourself. And I'm still supporting you, holding trust for you, even though I know you're wrong. Or at least, we're not sharing that perspective. That takes maturity.

Shane Jacob

That's a great point, that we don't have to agree with someone to honor their wisdom. It's a great point.

Marcus Higgs

Yeah, yeah.

Shane Jacob

Okay, let's see. I was wondering if you could maybe just give us an example. You've talked a little bit about this supportive autonomy, supportive parenting. You talked a little bit about conflict resolution, but could you give us an example of how that works? How's an example of how to use this in conflict?

Marcus Higgs

Sure, sure. I'll give you an example from a wonderful book, from a woman named Ellen Galansky. She used to work with Mr. Rogers. Absolutely love Mr. Rogers. In her book called The Breakthrough Years, so go check that out after this podcast, there was a boy who was coming home and he was going straight on his video game, right? And he would not do his homework, and he would spend all of his time there. And his mother brought it up to him and was like, hey, this is a problem, right?

Now, she brought it up to him, not saying you're lazy, what's wrong with you. But it was just like, “This is a problem because I'm concerned about how you're using digital media. It's becoming addictive, other things in your life aren't getting done. What do you think we should do about it?” So, she proposed he come up with a solution. He said, after going back and forth, he said, “Maybe if I came in the other door. And after I come in the other door, I have a choice, an ultimatum.” He chose these choices now, “I can either spend a little bit of time on the video game, and then I can spend more time on my homework. Or I can get all my homework done, and then I can spend more time on the video game.” But the queue was coming in the other door. She said “Okay, let's try that.”

So, they tried it out for some time, and the first go-around it actually worked. We say if the first go around it doesn't work, then we come up with other solutions. There it goes right there. teaching a child that he's able to come up with his own solutions for the rules that he played, the rules that he made for the game that he wants to win. As the parent, you do still set the tone, but what we're trying to do is give them a little bit of trust so that they can trust us.

Shane Jacob

Marcus, using your ideas, I was wondering if you just wanted to share a success story that kind of demonstrates the stress management, the deep connection from “you time” and problem solving. Do you have a story you might want to share with us, a success story?

Marcus Higgs

Sure, sure, sure. I'm actually looking for more case studies now. So if you're a parent, please reach out. But having been a teacher for a decade and a half, many stories come to mind where seeing the growth of a child from, let's say, seventh grade to ninth grade, and then seeing them graduate. Helping the parent keep themselves together and being mindful of knowing that there's a better future and right now. What we're trying to create is a child who can be secure in themselves. I'm speaking in generalities. Let me give you an exact story.

In education, UBD, Universal Basic Design, there's something that's called, I forget the exact name for it right now, but it's the idea that the child will take something from the lesson and what will last longer. They may not remember the details of the lesson, but what will last well beyond the lesson.

In dealing with some ninth graders, I had a tumultuous year. It was during COVID, family members passing while still trying to manage other things. I was teaching abroad, so I wasn't present for it. And I was going through my own stuff. I was trying to keep myself together because we always start with client one of what we can control and that resonates into the classroom. It was a student who was in grade nine, and I came back and I met him in grade 11. I had come out of the classroom by then, but I was still part of the school as a substitute teacher and I would come back. And I asked him, I said, “You know what, what do you remember from our class of all that time we studied together?” And he told me, he said, “You know what I remember? I remembered you actually cared.”

And that resonates for me because I'm intentional with how I show up in spaces, and kindness is a virtue. And through all the ups and downs that that kid had been through, and that we see with other teachers or other people who could speak into their lives. If after two years he could say, “You know what, you actually cared.” I'm trying to say in the game long enough that he knows that he could actually care about people and make an impact in maybe only his own family, or maybe with only him and his parents. But the fact that he could still see that, you know, that there was a person out there who actually cared about him, for me, that's a testimony and a win. Because there's so many other students who I'll never see again.

There's so many other students who I may not have resonated with. They may not have seen that. But I know that I'm showing up in this space as best as I can, that it lead to something for somebody to take away. So, I guess the testimony is my own life. Yeah, sorry, go on.

Shane Jacob

That's, yeah, that's a good story. I appreciate that. We're getting close to our time frame here. I was wondering, what would you like to leave us with today, Marcus, on The Horsemanship Journey? Last thoughts?

Marcus Higgs

Sure, sure. We spoke about trust. I will say, the trust will be broken. And maybe not intentionally. There might be miscommunication. There might be misalignment of values of what's important.

Again, when we say there's conflict in every relationship. Conflict doesn't define it, it's how we deal with that conflict. And right now I could be speaking about family relationships. I could be talking about business. I could be talking about us as a nation. But, it's how do we deal with that conflict? How do we hold respect for the other person while still trying to understand their needs and wants while also presenting our needs and wants? And I say all that to say, make repair and reconnection. That's one of the elements of care. If you don't care, you just leave it and you walk off. If you do care, you make repairs and reconnection.

What that looks like is this is not the type of person I want to be.; this is not the type of person I want us to be. I made it right. And this is what I plan to do going forward. And you own what you own. Like you're not asking anything else of the other person. It's, this is my identity, and this is what I choose to do going forward. We could get along together or not, but I've made right by me.

Shane Jacob

We appreciate that. Marcus, you convey, I think when people hear you, that you convey your concern, your genuine concern for other people. And I'm sure we can hear to some extent what that ninth grader heard, which is your concern. It's a feeling that you convey, and I know that we appreciate that and the people that work with you, obviously, according to your story, they feel and get that also.

Marcus, where can people find out more about you?

Marcus Higgs

Sure, sure. Thank you, thank you Shane. Your words are well received. I'm hanging out on LinkedIn, not so much on other social media yet. I plan to get there, but it's just not my priority at the moment. Or if they want to reach out directly at MarcusHiggs.com. I have some workshops going up by the end of this week. I don't know when these will release, but they will be there by the time you get there. And thank you for sharing your space, your time, and your attention, sir.

Shane Jacob

Very good. Thanks so much for spending your time with us on The Horsemanship Journey Podcast. Remember, you are moving ahead, and You Are Destined For Greatness. Don't Ever Stop Chasing It. Thank you.

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